Transgender propaganda

Re: Transgender propaganda

Postby John Galt » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:57 pm

it's thinking you are something you aren't. how is that not a mental illness?

50 years ago they would lobotomize people. the guy who created the technique got a nobel prize. now we cut off people's junk and shove hormones that their body correctly isn't making.

both things are invasive and destructive and done to ease symptoms. that doesn't make either lobotomies or sexual reassignment surgery morally acceptable
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Re: Transgender propaganda

Postby Vinnie_Big_Dog » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:29 pm

John Galt wrote:it's thinking you are something you aren't. how is that not a mental illness?

50 years ago they would lobotomize people. the guy who created the technique got a nobel prize. now we cut off people's junk and shove hormones that their body correctly isn't making.

both things are invasive and destructive and done to ease symptoms. that doesn't make either lobotomies or sexual reassignment surgery morally acceptable

It would appear that you either didn't bother to read the materiel that I posted, or that you have a serious deficit in reading comprehension. :wall: :wall: :wall:
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Re: Transgender propaganda

Postby exploited » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:38 pm

Vinnie_Big_Dog wrote:
exploited wrote:They are human beings with value, yes. They don't deserve cruel or harsh treatment.

That said, they are mentally ill, and we should be certain that they get help, real help, and not simply potent hormones and a hole where their dick was.


Thank you for expressing compassion and reasonableness ….to a point. However, I have a major problem with your assertion that transgender is a mental illness, if that is , in fact what you're saying. That is an opinion that you are stating as fact and I seriously doubt if you are qualified to make such a claim. The fact is that it is something that is very complex, not yet completely understood, and there is some evidence that there is a biological component, -similar to intersexual conditions, at least in some cases. To imply that they can be “cured” is just as absurd as the belief that homosexuals can be cured. Here are some resources that you might want to check out. Then maybe you will be in a position to make a more appropriate comment

Is being transgender a mental disorder?
No, but this remains a common stereotype about transgender people.
Transgender identity is not a mental illness that can be cured with treatment
. Rather, transgender people often experience a persistent and authentic disconnect between the sex assigned to them at birth and their internal sense of who they are. This disconnect is referred to by medical professionals as “gender dysphoria” because it can cause undue pain and distress in the lives of transgender people.

In December 2012, the American Psychiatric Association announced the latest version of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-V) would no longer include the term “gender identity disorder.” The revised manual replaced “gender identity disorder” with the more neutral term “gender dysphoria.”

Do all people who transition have surgery?

No, many transgender people can successfully transition without surgery. Some have no desire to pursue surgeries or medical intervention.

At the same time, many transgender people cannot afford medical treatment nor can they access it. In light of these injustices, it is important that civil rights and protections are extended to all transgender people equally, regardless of their medical histories. It’s also critical to continue advocating for full access to health care coverage for transgender people. http://www.hrc.org/resources/transgender-faq#8


[b][u]Transgender: Evidence on the biological nature of gender identity[/u][/b]
Date:February 13, 2015
Source:Boston University Medical Center
Summary:
Medical care of transgender patients, including surgical and hormonal treatment, has largely been met with resistance by physicians in favor of psychiatric treatment, owing to misconceptions that gender identity can be changed. There is increasing evidence of a biological basis for gender identity that may change physicians' perspective on transgender medicine and improve health care for these patients. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 112317.htm




What Causes Transsexualism?
by Lynn Conway
http://www.lynnconway.com/


Many causes for transsexualism have been proposed over the years. As discussed earlier in Lynn's TG/TS/IS information, it's long been known from intersex data that the genes do not determine gender identity, and recent follow-ups on intersex infant surgeries show that consistency of "genitals and upbringing" does not determine gender identity.

Instead, current scientific results strongly suggest neurobiological origins for transsexualism: Something appears to happen during the in-utero development of the transsexual child's central nervous system (CNS) so that the child is left with innate, strongly perceived cross-gender body feelings and self-perceptions. We still don't know for sure what causes this neurological development, and more research needs to be done. But the neurobiological direction for these explorations seem clear.

However, even without any scientific evidence to back them up, many psychiatrists and psychologists over the past four decades have simply assumed that transsexualism is a "mental illness". By DEFINING this socially unpopular condition to be a mental illness, these mental health professionals have shaped much of the medical establishment's and society's views of transsexuals as psychopathological "sexual deviants".

This page is an investigative report that describes and contrasts the older "mental illness" concept of transsexualism with more recently emerging scientific evidence of neurobiological bases for innate gender identity in humans.




I imagine that you and I are equally as qualified to discuss these matters, which if we accept your standards, means not at all. I could be wrong though - are you a doctor who has specialized in gender dysphoria?

In any case, the idea that gender dysphoria is not a mental illness is false. Your first link refers to the American Psychiatric Association manual for a reason.

Also false is the contention that if something has a biological origin, it cannot be considered a mental illness. By that logic, sociopathy or anorexia aren't mental illnesses, in that they have or are likely to have biological origins.

Should mental illness be stigmatized? No. Should people be cruel or malicious towards those with mental illness? No. Should we shy away from calling something a mental illness simply because people have historically demeaned those with illnesses? No.

The simple truth is that our means of "treating" gender dysphoria are extremely invasive and damaging, and should only be employed if it means saving a persons life (i.e. they will kill themselves otherwise). We must demand that our scientists and researchers continue to look for better treatment options, and not simply decide that lopping off genitals or breasts, while injecting extremely powerful hormones, is "good enough."

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Re: Transgender propaganda

Postby Vinnie_Big_Dog » Thu Dec 15, 2016 4:57 pm

exploited wrote:
Vinnie_Big_Dog wrote:
exploited wrote:They are human beings with value, yes. They don't deserve cruel or harsh treatment.

That said, they are mentally ill, and we should be certain that they get help, real help, and not simply potent hormones and a hole where their dick was.


Thank you for expressing compassion and reasonableness ….to a point. However, I have a major problem with your assertion that transgender is a mental illness, if that is , in fact what you're saying. That is an opinion that you are stating as fact and I seriously doubt if you are qualified to make such a claim. The fact is that it is something that is very complex, not yet completely understood, and there is some evidence that there is a biological component, -similar to intersexual conditions, at least in some cases. To imply that they can be “cured” is just as absurd as the belief that homosexuals can be cured. Here are some resources that you might want to check out. Then maybe you will be in a position to make a more appropriate comment

Is being transgender a mental disorder?
No, but this remains a common stereotype about transgender people.
Transgender identity is not a mental illness that can be cured with treatment
. Rather, transgender people often experience a persistent and authentic disconnect between the sex assigned to them at birth and their internal sense of who they are. This disconnect is referred to by medical professionals as “gender dysphoria” because it can cause undue pain and distress in the lives of transgender people.

In December 2012, the American Psychiatric Association announced the latest version of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-V) would no longer include the term “gender identity disorder.” The revised manual replaced “gender identity disorder” with the more neutral term “gender dysphoria.”

Do all people who transition have surgery?

No, many transgender people can successfully transition without surgery. Some have no desire to pursue surgeries or medical intervention.

At the same time, many transgender people cannot afford medical treatment nor can they access it. In light of these injustices, it is important that civil rights and protections are extended to all transgender people equally, regardless of their medical histories. It’s also critical to continue advocating for full access to health care coverage for transgender people. http://www.hrc.org/resources/transgender-faq#8


[b][u]Transgender: Evidence on the biological nature of gender identity[/u][/b]
Date:February 13, 2015
Source:Boston University Medical Center
Summary:
Medical care of transgender patients, including surgical and hormonal treatment, has largely been met with resistance by physicians in favor of psychiatric treatment, owing to misconceptions that gender identity can be changed. There is increasing evidence of a biological basis for gender identity that may change physicians' perspective on transgender medicine and improve health care for these patients. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 112317.htm




What Causes Transsexualism?
by Lynn Conway
http://www.lynnconway.com/


Many causes for transsexualism have been proposed over the years. As discussed earlier in Lynn's TG/TS/IS information, it's long been known from intersex data that the genes do not determine gender identity, and recent follow-ups on intersex infant surgeries show that consistency of "genitals and upbringing" does not determine gender identity.

Instead, current scientific results strongly suggest neurobiological origins for transsexualism: Something appears to happen during the in-utero development of the transsexual child's central nervous system (CNS) so that the child is left with innate, strongly perceived cross-gender body feelings and self-perceptions. We still don't know for sure what causes this neurological development, and more research needs to be done. But the neurobiological direction for these explorations seem clear.

However, even without any scientific evidence to back them up, many psychiatrists and psychologists over the past four decades have simply assumed that transsexualism is a "mental illness". By DEFINING this socially unpopular condition to be a mental illness, these mental health professionals have shaped much of the medical establishment's and society's views of transsexuals as psychopathological "sexual deviants".

This page is an investigative report that describes and contrasts the older "mental illness" concept of transsexualism with more recently emerging scientific evidence of neurobiological bases for innate gender identity in humans.




I imagine that you and I are equally as qualified to discuss these matters, which if we accept your standards, means not at all. I could be wrong though - are you a doctor who has specialized in gender dysphoria?

In any case, the idea that gender dysphoria is not a mental illness is false. Your first link refers to the American Psychiatric Association manual for a reason.

Also false is the contention that if something has a biological origin, it cannot be considered a mental illness. By that logic, sociopathy or anorexia aren't mental illnesses, in that they have or are likely to have biological origins.

Should mental illness be stigmatized? No. Should people be cruel or malicious towards those with mental illness? No. Should we shy away from calling something a mental illness simply because people have historically demeaned those with illnesses? No.

The simple truth is that our means of "treating" gender dysphoria are extremely invasive and damaging, and should only be employed if it means saving a persons life (i.e. they will kill themselves otherwise). We must demand that our scientists and researchers continue to look for better treatment options, and not simply decide that lopping off genitals or breasts, while injecting extremely powerful hormones, is "good enough."


No I am not a doctor. But I can read and learn, and I'm sure that you can too. I stand corrected on the point that the presence of a biological factor precludes a condition from being a mental illness. However, mental illness implies that the "condition" can be treated and ameliorated by psycho therapy and /or medication. In this case that the gender dysphoria can be "cured" - cannot be and it would be cruel and destructive to try- so I stand by my assertion that it is not a mental illness, and I have the backing of most mental health professionals.

As far as your assertion that our methods of treating transgender people is " extremely invasive" goes, you really need to read up on that. No one is "lobbing off genitals " in a impulsive and hasty manner. Many never have surgery for a variety of reasons, and those who do must undergo and intensive screening process.

The main point that I'm making here is that you cannot and should not try to convince someone who believes that their body does not match their gender identity and that the answer is "get help" and "get over it" Not happening.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.”
~John Kenneth Galbraith
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Re: Transgender propaganda

Postby exploited » Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:31 pm

Vinnie_Big_Dog wrote:No I am not a doctor. But I can read and learn, and I'm sure that you can too. I stand corrected on the point that the presence of a biological factor precludes a condition from being a mental illness. However, mental illness implies that the "condition" can be treated and ameliorated by psycho therapy and /or medication. In this case that the gender dysphoria can be "cured" - cannot be and it would be cruel and destructive to try- so I stand by my assertion that it is not a mental illness, and I have the backing of most mental health professionals.

As far as your assertion that our methods of treating transgender people is " extremely invasive" goes, you really need to read up on that. No one is "lobbing off genitals " in a impulsive and hasty manner. Many never have surgery for a variety of reasons, and those who do must undergo and intensive screening process.

The main point that I'm making here is that you cannot and should not try to convince someone who believes that their body does not match their gender identity and that the answer is "get help" and "get over it" Not happening.


I'm glad we agree that we are both equally qualified to speak on this issue.

I call it a mental illness because I find it to be a more polite term than "mental defect." I don't mean to carry over any connotations of the word "illness," and I don't use defect precisely because of the connotation, which is "unnatural." Being transgendered is perfectly natural. It occurs in nature. It has a biological component, and likely a sociocultural component as well (this is inline with epigenetics, by the way).

However, it should be noted that your own sources show that gender dysphoria is successfully treated without surgery many times. How? Typically through therapy, and other processes related to mental illness. Essentially, the treatment method for being transgender consists of extensive psychotherapy, culminating in gender reassignment. I think it is shameful that we have put so few resources into this problem. Mental health care is abysmal. I don't object whatsoever to the idea that people who have transgender issues should be treated with dignity and respect, the same as anyone else. What I object to is this acceptance of a human being going through years of torment, and at the end of it, the doctors suggest amputating and chemical therapy.

What you are doing is mistaking my unwillingness to treat a perfectly natural mental illness as "normal," for hostility towards transgender people.
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Re: Transgender propaganda

Postby Vinnie_Big_Dog » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:03 am

exploited wrote:
Vinnie_Big_Dog wrote:No I am not a doctor. But I can read and learn, and I'm sure that you can too. I stand corrected on the point that the presence of a biological factor precludes a condition from being a mental illness. However, mental illness implies that the "condition" can be treated and ameliorated by psycho therapy and /or medication. In this case that the gender dysphoria can be "cured" - cannot be and it would be cruel and destructive to try- so I stand by my assertion that it is not a mental illness, and I have the backing of most mental health professionals.

As far as your assertion that our methods of treating transgender people is " extremely invasive" goes, you really need to read up on that. No one is "lobbing off genitals " in a impulsive and hasty manner. Many never have surgery for a variety of reasons, and those who do must undergo and intensive screening process.

The main point that I'm making here is that you cannot and should not try to convince someone who believes that their body does not match their gender identity and that the answer is "get help" and "get over it" Not happening.


I'm glad we agree that we are both equally qualified to speak on this issue.

I call it a mental illness because I find it to be a more polite term than "mental defect." I don't mean to carry over any connotations of the word "illness," and I don't use defect precisely because of the connotation, which is "unnatural." Being transgendered is perfectly natural. It occurs in nature. It has a biological component, and likely a sociocultural component as well (this is inline with epigenetics, by the way).

However, it should be noted that your own sources show that gender dysphoria is successfully treated without surgery many times. How? Typically through therapy, and other processes related to mental illness. Essentially, the treatment method for being transgender consists of extensive psychotherapy, culminating in gender reassignment. I think it is shameful that we have put so few resources into this problem. Mental health care is abysmal. I don't object whatsoever to the idea that people who have transgender issues should be treated with dignity and respect, the same as anyone else. What I object to is this acceptance of a human being going through years of torment, and at the end of it, the doctors suggest amputating and chemical therapy.

What you are doing is mistaking my unwillingness to treat a perfectly natural mental illness as "normal," for hostility towards transgender people.

OK then. I'm no longer sure what exactly it is that we disagree on here. It seems to be mostly a matter of semantics. That is unless you're suggesting that a transgender person can be made into a cisgender person through psychotherapy.....then we do not agree and there is nothing in the literature to suggest that. Yes, they go though years of torment, but the aim of the medical and mental health professionals is to east that pain, not to exacerbate it, the as you know, solution is not always surgery .

I will add that it's good that you have brought some intelligence to what started with a rather shallow and idiotic OP
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.”
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