We're so f*cked

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It's been a year, did Trump Co work with the Russians?

Yes - I read fake news
7
88%
No - I am a Trumpbot and lack any critical thinking skills
1
13%
 
Total votes : 8

Re: We're so f*cked

Postby Kane » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:54 pm

John Galt wrote:offset was far more of a national issue tied to a referendum on trump, i'll give you that. moore was his own beast. and in VA trump and gillepsie got the exact same percentage of the vote FYI


Eh?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... inia,_2016

Clinton: 49% (1.981 Million)
Trump: 44% (1.769 Million)

https://www.nytimes.com/elections/resul ... ie-northam

Percentage is the same but consider the actual numbers:

Gillespie: 1.173 Million
Northam: 1.405 Million

Turnout for Dems was 576,000 less while it was 596,000 less for the GOP. Percent stays the same but overall turnout is down considerably.

Ossoff got close to winning - a testament to GOP concerns going forward. Moore had help from Bannon and Trump - their explicit backing. Didn't help enough. They even tried to sow confusion by calling it all lies from #fakemedia. Didn't work.
Stephen Jay Gould wrote:When people learn no tools of judgment and merely follow their hopes, the seeds of political manipulation are sown.
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Re: We're so f*cked

Postby Kane » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:04 pm

Let me put it this way:

Trump/Bannon supported Moore - either that motivated more people to vote for him (but still not enough) or it somehow negatively impacted it. I'm going with it helped Moore. It didn't help him enough. In Alabama. Where a child molester was a toss up election.

It says something. Something that could be positive.
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Re: We're so f*cked

Postby John Galt » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:07 pm

i said percent was same. of course turnout was down. it wasn't a presidential election with trumps coattails to carry him through. turnout was unusually high in 2016 at 72% for the presidential election. when turnout was super high because of obama... it was only 65% in VA in 2008. bush-kerry in 2004 was 57%

now the election of governor was at 47% this last election, which is actually higher turnout than the previous governor election (43%) which had similar results

i really don't get it, man. equally spaced dots on a grid can be connected into any shape you want, but you're the one connecting them and they aren't naturally related
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Re: We're so f*cked

Postby Spider » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:19 pm

John Galt wrote:i'm not sure if it was "trump" in general. i think it was specifically the massive blunder that was Jeff Sessions as AG (loss of Alabama senator who was ardent supporter of trump, loss of a AG that could shield president with recusal, and loss of the seat entirely)

Roy Moore is who lost this election. this was the work of Steve Bannon in beating Strange. Roy Moore lost because enough people decided that someone who actually molested children is worse than someone who would support the theoretical killing of babies which is already legal anyway (you must come from their prospective of deciding between 1. a child molester and 2. a supporter of child murder. i know you don't see it that way but that's why you (spider, i'm talking to spider actually) have trouble coming to grips with why someone might have an opinion different than yours. you should try to argue the other side sometimes. it's a fun exercise and enlightening). anyway, enough said they would rather see someone who wasn't a literal child molester in the senate, for all their misgivings about the other guy. it wasn't trump. alabama is trumpland



Galt, I realize there's a lot you don't know about this issue, and particularly my take on it...but the way you frame it is emotional, irrational, and flatly incorrect. Its not simply a matter of opinion. In order to come to your conclusions, and to so intentionally misstate the actualities, you have to actively and knowingly ignore the meanings of the words you throw about.

And you'll never stop...because your entire position is predicated on irrational emotional outrage, and simple detached consideration need not be applied. Your response to this post will undoubtedly bear this out.

I believe in liberty, first and foremost. You believe in big government running people's personal lives. That's the actual issue. As Doug Jones has said: "I fully support a woman’s freedom to choose to what happens to her own body. That is an intensely, intensely personal decision that only she, in consultation with her god, her doctor, her partner or family, that’s her choice." .... "I’m not in favor of anything that is going to infringe on a woman’s right and her freedom to choose. That’s just the position that I’ve had for many years. It’s a position I continue to have."

As I've repeatedly stated, I think abortion is f**k awful, on the grounds of the loss of potential, and the eventual emotional problems or regrets it can cause later on. But I don't believe it's the proper role of government to be jammed up into someone's decision making on when or how many or which children they choose to have. Liberty, Galt. The notion of government clawing its way into the most personal decisions of someone's life to such an outrageous degree is so completely disgusting and unthinkably dangerous that I just can't find even a moment's patience with it. The solution isn't government dictating the internal functions of people's bodies, as you probably aren't aware.

Not getting into an abortion debate, here. I'm simply stating my position so it's plain for anyone who cares, before you (and others) completely ignore what I've just said and start with the straw men, misquotes, and appeals to emotion.
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Re: We're so f*cked

Postby John Galt » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:36 pm

we're talking about the liberty of one overriding the life of another. and this is the fundamental debate, one which you cannot reconcile that other people even can possibly think. i very much understand the personal liberty angle. it's why i can also see the argument for "the liberty to enslave people" as being an argument people actually had, as i find that and an argument for a "liberty to kill people" lines of arguments analogous (both are centered on the idea of ownership of one person over another), and i can sympathize with reasons why people make them.

but the point is people were really making the argument in their heads. they really do feel they were choosing between a child molester and a child murderer. which would you choose? no, can't argue with how they are defining it. it's impossible. can't argue. we're stepping into the shoes of an alabaman voter.. you are given two choices (well 3, you can choose not to choose at all): 1. child molester, likely guilty, if i vote for him it may be interpreted as i am supporting him in what he has personally done but he does deny the allegations so there is that to assuage my conscience, 2. child murder supporter, stated he will continue to support the murder of children, if i vote for him i am voting to support the murder of children, 3. abstain.
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Re: We're so f*cked

Postby Spider » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:53 pm

From that tack, the fundamental debate is simply that of defining personhood. Which is how every abortion debate comes full circle. Have fun with that, Bertrand.

But the remainder of your post simply reaffirms what I said. You are calling fetuses children, irrationally applying personhood to them in order to thereby emotionally throw out words like murder.

This is why abortion debates are pointless. You will never stop calling a fetus a person, and I will never pretend that they are for the sake of argument. Its a forehead, meet wall discussion.

I understand that a lot of people voting in that election feel this way. Where I disagree is that they viewed it as a choice between those two conditions. Personally, I'm betting they honestly have been sequestered by the "fake news" idiocy and truly believe the whole thing is made up, and that the media is calling the shots. I think those who voted for Moore most likely live in that fake news bubble and simply have no idea what's going on...the ones who actually believed the news about Moore but supported him anyways....have got to be relatively few.

I've got way too much respect for the people of Alabama to think they actually believed Moore was a pedophile and voted for him anyway because they were that little bit less put off by child molestation. Moore played the Godly Man/Religion! card hard. It's the core of his whole schtick. His supporters think the news is fake. Has to be.
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Re: We're so f*cked

Postby exploited » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:41 pm

Spider wrote:From that tack, the fundamental debate is simply that of defining personhood. Which is how every abortion debate comes full circle. Have fun with that, Bertrand.

But the remainder of your post simply reaffirms what I said. You are calling fetuses children, irrationally applying personhood to them in order to thereby emotionally throw out words like murder.

This is why abortion debates are pointless. You will never stop calling a fetus a person, and I will never pretend that they are for the sake of argument. Its a forehead, meet wall discussion.

I understand that a lot of people voting in that election feel this way. Where I disagree is that they viewed it as a choice between those two conditions. Personally, I'm betting they honestly have been sequestered by the "fake news" idiocy and truly believe the whole thing is made up, and that the media is calling the shots. I think those who voted for Moore most likely live in that fake news bubble and simply have no idea what's going on...the ones who actually believed the news about Moore but supported him anyways....have got to be relatively few.

I've got way too much respect for the people of Alabama to think they actually believed Moore was a pedophile and voted for him anyway because they were that little bit less put off by child molestation. Moore played the Godly Man/Religion! card hard. It's the core of his whole schtick. His supporters think the news is fake. Has to be.


The personhood argument is a means of shutting down the debate, nothing more, nothing less. The simple truth is that we don't know what makes a person, and every attempt to formulate a standard fails.

Is it intelligence? Is it the ability to feel pain? Is it belonging to a particular species? Is it when you are conscious? Is it a combination of any of these things?

We don't know, straight up.

Some people want to draw an arbitrary line at birth. Others want to draw an arbitrary line at 6, 7, 8 or 9 months. Still others want to draw an arbitrary line at birth. None of these lines have any logical basis outside of cherry-picking a particular "this is personhood" argument and sticking with it, despite having no actual idea what that term means.
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Re: We're so f*cked

Postby The Comrade » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:18 pm

well i know a canadian in this thread whho isn't a person so that narrows things down a little.

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Re: We're so f*cked

Postby Kane » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:18 am

John Galt wrote:i said percent was same. of course turnout was down. it wasn't a presidential election with trumps coattails to carry him through. turnout was unusually high in 2016 at 72% for the presidential election. when turnout was super high because of obama... it was only 65% in VA in 2008. bush-kerry in 2004 was 57%

now the election of governor was at 47% this last election, which is actually higher turnout than the previous governor election (43%) which had similar results

i really don't get it, man. equally spaced dots on a grid can be connected into any shape you want, but you're the one connecting them and they aren't naturally related


Dude, jesus f**k christ c'mon.

Turnout for this election was down 40% for Northam from Clinton whereas for Gillespie turnout was down half.

Yes, not a presidential election blah blah blah but that's typical. You still have a 10% differential in turnout for Northam during this election. There is clearly something different going on here.

In fact, let's look at the last governor election in VA in 2013:

Turnout was 2.24 million overall. 2017? 2.6 million.

Terry McAuliffe got 47.75% of the vote (1.069 Million) and Ken Cuccinelli got 45.23% of the vote (1.013 Million). Much much closer with a lower turnout.
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Re: We're so f*cked

Postby Kane » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:35 am

lol

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/14/politics/ ... index.html

Look at Putin praising Trump. He must be good!
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